Comments are due by 11:59 pm Thursday (10/9).
Explain how the Shaper affects Grendel's state of mind. Make sure you explain the complex, ambivalent feelings Grendel has towards the Shaper's poems. Then explain why Grendel feels this way.
Responses must be 10+ sentences.
Responses must include at least two quotations as supporting evidence.
(To exceed expectations tackle this question too: What might the chapter's zodiac sign have to do with Grendel's state of mind? Hint: look at how Grendel describes his mental state at the end of the chapter.)
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John Board
Day Three
John Board
Day Two
The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood
We by Yevgeny Zamyatin
Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut
Brave New World by Aldous Huxley
Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
1984 by George Orwell
Frontispiece to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
Frontispiece to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein by Theodore Von Holst
Grendel by John Gardner
"Thus I fled, ridiculous hairy creature torn apart by poetry..."
Lord of the Flies by William Golding
19 comments:
The shaper affected Grendel in many ways. First of all he kind of confused Grendel in a way. He wrote poems and songs about Hrothgar and made him sound good. Even though Hrothgar is really a bully. Also He wrote poems about people dying and killing and made Grendel think that killing was ok for more than just for food. “He knows no art but tragedy-a moving singer.” “He sings to a heavier harpsong now, old heart-string scratcher, memory scraper.” The shaper also portrays humans in a way that Grendel didn’t understand and it made Grendel question it. Grendel is confused about what’s going on and the world around him because of the influences of the shaper. Grendel should just stick to his own state of mind.
(Grendel is examining and questioning the Danes’ culture and civilization. Grendel sits and watches day to day, the Danes and their behavior. The Danes drink a lot, and start arguments, sometimes leading to death. They kill each other, and then act as if nothing happened. At the following funerals, they celebrate, drinking again. Hrothgar himself is an extortionist, he takes riches from near by places for protection, to protect from threating forces and himself.) With all this in mind, Grendel becomes confused by the Shaper. The Shaper provides the Danes with an image of the world as having meaning —an image that Grendel finds incredibly alluring, despite knowing that the resplendent stories of Hrothgar's court are built upon a collection of lies. The Shaper affected Grendel's state of mind through confusion. He doesn’t know why the Shaper is weaving this web of lies. (Grendel doesn’t realize what we, as readers know-- That being, the way of Anglo-Saxon protagonists, valuing strength, pride, and bravery. But among that, they exaggerate their experiences to sound like they have those qualities.) Grendel's confusion put aside, he is also very touched by the Shaper’s playing. The beauty of the Shaper's art completely derails Grendel. He is torn between the appeal of logical thought and angelic poetry. Grendel grows confused and apprehensive.
The Shaper affects Grendel’s state of mind because of the men’s actions after the Shaper had spoke. Grendel didn’t understand why the men drew praise to the Shaper’s words as they were lies. Grendel knew the truth and had seen and heard it, yet he even believed in what the Shaper spoke of, “Even to me, incredibly, he had made it all seem true and very fine”. Grendel was puzzled of why even he believed what the Shaper said which left him questioning himself. The way the Shaper motivated these men and made them believe the stories that he told left Grendel stumped because he knew the truth and what had been told by the Shaper, believed in greatly, and seemed so real yet it wasn’t true. This made Gendel go crazy, “ I crossed the moors in a queer panic, like a creature half insane”. Grendel felt frustrated because the men were told lies and would be remembered and told over and over again and it never was true. Grendel didn’t know why he also believed the stories as if it was the harp or the way the story was preached, this also left him in confusion. I think Grendel believed in the stories because of how much the men believed in it and because he listened so carefully and enjoyed it. All of this confusion and frustration bottled up in Grendel’s mind leaves him screaming which could lead to his killing.
The shaper effected grendle in many ways. He confused grendle with words that sounded true and made grendle want to believe what he was saying. Grendle knew the that what the shaper was saying was a lie because he ha seen it first hand. Grendle still wanted to believe that hrothgar was good but hee knew it was a lie. I think that’s the effect that the shaper had on grendle.
Grendel's first impression of the sharper is that he likes the way he talks, his words of speech.Like most people in this book Grendel at first believed some what of what the sharper said and thought he spoke the truth “Even to me, incredibly, he had made it all seem true and very fine”, but in reality Grendel soon found out that wasn't the case. As the story went on Grendel found out he spoke lies because he had witnessed some of the cases.The sharper spoke of ridiculous things he spoke with flattery, and illusion. Grendel watched humans fight over what appears to be boredom and pride, but once the sharper talked to them they listened and became peaceful. All of what Grendel feels through out the chapter confuses him he doesn't seem to know what to believe anymore. He wishes that the sharper spoke the truth because maybe then he could be at ease seeing that the world made sense.
In many ways Grendel was affected by the shaper. The poems that the shaper was telling had made the stories "seem real and true". When Grendel was walking away from the meadhall he liked how the poems or stories sound but had realized that they were lies. Grendel was confused because he compares himself as a "mixed up lamb". That he does not understand on wether to lie or not. That he knows the truth on what happens would remember it a certain way. Grendel felt kind of like a "two-headed beast" because he knew the truth about the "men fighting each other untill the snow was red slush". Grendel wanted to be kind and understood but seeing all this fighting around him and hearing the shapers poems was starting too make Grendel become evil. Grendel probaly thoght about how everything the shaper says is a lie but everything that the shapers says the men believe. That maybe it would be better that he was two faced. During this time it is the month of the twins (Gemini). Grendel could be like a twin. He could be nice and kind one minute and then the next he could be the other twin and end up being evil. Grendel feels toworn up on wether to lie or not to lie after hearing the shapers poems.
The Shapers song, or tale, had a remarkable effect on Grendel. Grendel has spent his time watching all of these different groups in their mead halls for some time. He did this to try to understand the people, what their purpose was, how they interacted, too find out, are they good or bad? Since Grendel had done this for so long, he knew the history of these people quite well, yet he is still moved greatly by the Shapers words.
He seems to be almost hypnotized by the harmonic or melodic tone of the song and is almost led to believe these things are true. Grendel thinks deeply about the song after the fact and goes even as far to say that he believes him, "The Man had changed the world, had torn up the past by its thick, gnarled roots and had transmuted it, and they, who knew the truth, rememered it his way-and so did I."
Grendel does have some equitable thought though, in that he uses logic to try to convince himself that the Shaper's song is merely propaganda. The Shaper's intent was to convince the people that they were part of a great prestigious civilization. He tries to "candy-coat" their lives and even tries to change the perception of the soldiers by calling them "battle-lords." Still, Grendel is incredibly confused and basically goes crazy running back across the moors "in a queer panic, like a creature half insane."
Grendel feels this way because he sees the reaction all the people had to the song and how they were so touched by the Shaper’s words and he feels that, that is the correct way to feel. He is almost like a child coming into his teenage years. His emotions are heavily reflected by that of the majority, yet he still considers his own logic and philosophical beliefs and is greatly torn by the differences.
This Chapter falls under the Zodiac sign Gemini (Twins). Grendel's state of mind is relevant to the Gemini because of what he says at the end of the chapter, comparing himself to a two headed beast. The twins part would be the two heads, but it has one body. This would signify that he is one person but is torn apart by two completely different beliefs. That would be a mental or emotional connection to the Zodiac sign. I also believe John Gardner used the line about the sheep’s "wobbly twins" to tie together two different chapters. The line is "It was late spring. Ever sheep and goat had its wobbly twins..." The late spring would still be Taurus and the sheep having twins would allude to the beginning of Gemini. This is a whole new part of Grendel's life and each passing zodiac is monumental in his development as a monster.
The shaper effected Grendel in a numerous amount of ways.Grendel listened to all that the shaper had to say, which sometimes was puzzling to him. He was confused because of how the people would react to things which was different then what he had imagined."Hrothgar's messangers answered with friendly words and praise of the man they'd just plundered." This helps demonstrate that Grendel did not understand the people. He saw Hrothgar's actions as evil and expected everyone else to see him in the same way. Then the messengers talked with so much pride in him, this is what had puzzled Grendel."Inside the hall I would hear the Sharper telling of the glorious deeds of the dead king-how they'd split certain heads,snuck away with certain precious swords and necklaces-his harp mimicking the rush of swords, clanging boldly with his noble speaches, sighing behind the heroes' dying words." This quote also helps to show that Grendel is confused on how the Shaper talks and how everyone listens to him. The Shaper lies in such a way that it is believed to be the truth. He made all the terrible effects of the war sound like an honor to be apart of. The Shaper was very clever on how he delivered his speaches. He made sure that all his lies were convincing, and they were. The shaper's ability to lie so well and have everyone be so interested in his stories has a huge effect on Grendel. Grendel is very confused that people could believe all the lies when the truth is right in front of them.
The shaper in Grendel affects Grendel in many different ways. Grendel listens to what the shaper has to say and is very confused by it. Grendel’s prospective on the shaper’s stories are lies but he questions himself and wonders if what the shaper has said is actually true. This is what affects Grendel’s state of mind. “What was he? The man had changed the world, had torn up the past by its thick, gnarled roots and had transmuted it, and they, who knew the truth, remembered it his way-and so did I.” This part of the book shows that Grendel’s prospective on life has changed. The shaper actually shaped how Grendel feels about the values of human life. Grendel grew up believing that humans were always finding reason for life and what values it beholds but Grendel thought things happened in life for a cause. The shaper has made Grendel think twice about his perspective on life itself. “I crossed the moors in a queer panic, like a creature half insane – I was so filled with sorrow and tenderness I could hardly have found it in my heart to snatch a pig!” This whole section shows how the shaper changed Grendel’s perspective. Grendel is thinking about all these events and human values. What Grendel once overlooked in life and thought was stupid now seems relevant to the real world. From this point on to the end of the chapter Grendel is put into a bind always second guessing what he truly believes in.
Grendel was affected by the words of the Shaper in different fashions. Grendel would listen to his magnificent lies with great intrigue. The things that the shaper would say would be farfetched about how the warriors would gallantly fight for respect and their heritage. The Shaper's words began to change Grendel's outlook on the world. He would listen to these tales and relaize how much this shaper made up in the song and poem about these battles. Grendel became angered the more he listened to the shaper talk about the warriors brave battles. Grendel would not understand why the people would just sit there and listen to these obvious tall tales.
The shaper affected grendle in many ways.Grendel listened to what the shaper had to say about everything. The shaper tryed to pursuae Grendel into listening to him. This made grendel confused about what he should of thought about doing. The Shaper lies in such a way that it is believed to be the truth. He made all the terrible effects of the war sound like an honor to be apart of. That is what is what the shaper is good for.
The shaper affects Grendel through his poem recited in a mead hall. The shaper sings about war and the violent history of the danes. Grendel is mad when he hears the shapers story of the danes history. Grendel knows the history of the danes better and is mad because the sahper was not accurate in his story. Grendel gets over it because he knows the shaper just wants to please the crowd who is in favor of Hrothgar. The shaper really worries grendel by telling the lies. Gendel is drivin to insanity by the shapers poem.
In chapter 3 of Grendel, Grendel is basically watching what Hrothgar and his men do. He learns many things about Hrothgar and his men. He watches them kill other men to gain power and supremacy over neighboring kingdoms. He didn’t understand this because he only kills to eat. Grendel thought what Hrothgar and his men were doing was wrong and then conflict came when the shaper entered Hrothgar’s mead hall and started reciting his poem. This poem confused Grendel it made him think that all of the things Hrothgars men were doing was right and That Hrothgar was a good man, when all this time Grendel thought that everything that they were doing was wrong such as killing just for treasure and not for food. Another thing that confused Grendel was the fact the shaper made it seem like you could celebrate death. Grendel thinks that when someone dies that’s it there is nothing to celebrate, yet the beautiful language of the shaper made it seem to be real. Like Grendel said “ The man changed had changed the world, had torn up the past by its thick, gnarled roots and had transmuted it, and they, who knew the truth, remembered it his way-and so did I”. That is the conflict the Shaper is causing on Grendel its, as he said, is changing Grendel’s world. It is even changing the way he talks as shown in the following excerpt “Whining in winter, the shriek of people and animals burning, the whip-slashed oxen in the mire the scattered battle-leavings: wolf-torn corpses, falcons fat with blood.” Notice the descriptive language and the use of alliteration that he uses after hearing the shaper that he wouldn’t normally use. Grendel’s mind is split in two on one hand he’s hearing beautiful poetry and words being used by the shaper and on the other hand he’s hearing the shaper tell things that go against what Grendel believes but because of the beautiful poetry Grendel stars to believe it. Perhaps this is the link to the zodiac sign of the Gemini or twins because his mind is split in two.
The shaper affects grendel by telling stories of things that grendel had known to be untrue. Although Grendel does not believe in what the shaper is saying he cannot help but feel enticed by his attractive depiction of life. Grendel finds it hard to ignore the shaper because he was so moved by his songs. When listening to the songs of the shaper Grendel found clarity as to where he fits in in the world and for the first time life in general made sense to Grendel. Grendel does not have anybody to look to for guidance or to ask important questions as to his purpose or where he fits into society. What Grendel needs is to have someone like him who understands him and can reassure him about his philosophy and morality of his actions. The shaper has a very high opinion of Hrothgar and expresses it through his songs. This conflicts with Grendels belief which is that Hrothgar is not the Hero that the shaper makes him out to be. Grendel is troubled by this because he admires the shaper more than anyone and the shaper seems to admire someone that is so false and dishonorable to grendel.
Grendel is affected by what the shaper says in two ways. One is Grendel knows Hrothgar is a bully or sorts,he sends his armies to push around smaller ones and get them to join his army so the littler army gets protection and Hrothgar gets gold and more land. But the way the shaper makes him sound is almost like a God like king who does no wrong. Another way the shaper confuses Grendel is through his stories. Grendel knows all that the shaper says is a lie, but it is spoken so beautifully that Grendel almost wants to believe it. It screws with Grendels mind to the point where he feels like crawling out of his own skin. He has to run off into the woods to escape the jumbling of his thoughts that the Shaper creates
The shapers poem affected Grendel in many ways. The first way is that Shapers poem got Grendel confused in many ways. Another way that Shaper affected Grendels state of mind is Shapers poem made Hrothgar out to be the good guy in all of this. Grendel kills them and they are all happy and that also gets Grendel confused. Then Grendel has no one to look to help him out of this. He is also confused because of the history of the danes. So all in all these are a few reasons why Shapers poem affected Grendel.
“I was so filled with sorrow and tenderness I could hardly have found it in my heart to snatch a pig!” The Shaper really screwed with Grendel’s head. Grendel was crying and found it hard to do something that he would normally have no negative feeling towards. He was trying to figure out what all this meant, he has seen the men kill and destroy, yet the Shaper is talking about their love of piece. Surely man cannot be peace-loving while having war. The Shaper’s lies were so temptingly realistic, that Grendel began to believe them. “Thus I fled, ridiculously hairy creature torn apart by poetry-” The songs of the Shaper were really digging into Grendel. He is a violent creature with a vast knowledge of the history of Hrothgar’s empire. What is really getting him though is the fact that all these men believe the Shaper. And in all this mess, we later find out that Grendel really would like to believe in the stories the man sings.
The shaper affected Grendel's state of mind in many ways. First off he twisted Grendel's mind up with words. He wrote poems and songs about Hrothgar and made him sound really nice and appealing to Grendel, except Hrothgar is really a bad dude that no one should ever have to be around. Also He wrote poems about people being murder and people dying which made Grendel feel that killing was ok for more than just food “He knows no art but tragedy-a moving singer.” “He sings to a heavier harp song now, old heart-string scratchier, memory scraper.” The shaper also makes it seem as though Grendel does not understand humans in a way. Grendel doesn’t understand the world and it made Grendel question every thing. Grendel is unsure about what’s going on in the world and every thing around him because of the shaper and his very impressionable mind. Grendel should just think for himself and go with what he thinks is Wright.
The shaper affected Grendel's state of mind in many ways. First off he twisted Grendel's mind up with words. He wrote poems and songs about Hrothgar and made him sound really nice and appealing to Grendel, except Hrothgar is really a bad dude that no one should ever have to be around. Also He wrote poems about people being murder and people dying which made Grendel feel that killing was ok for more than just food “He knows no art but tragedy-a moving singer.” “He sings to a heavier harp song now, old heart-string scratchier, memory scraper.” The shaper also makes it seem as though Grendel does not understand humans in a way. Grendel doesn’t understand the world and it made Grendel question every thing. Grendel is unsure about what’s going on in the world and every thing around him because of the shaper and his very impressionable mind. Grendel should just think for himself and go with what he thinks is Wright.
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